View Full Version : BARCLAYS ATP WORLD TOUR FINAL - who will reach the Semi's???
Sallydaisy
05-11-2012, 09:41
Chart of wins and losses.
...........
Nole
2W
0L
Andy
1W
1L
Tomas
1W
1L
Jo
0W
2L
Nole
xxxxx
6'4 3'6 5'7
1-2
14'17
3'6 5'7
0-2
8'13
Andy
4'6 6'3 7'5
2-1
17'14
xxxxx
6'3 3'6 4'6
1-2
13'15
Tomas
3'6 6'3 6'4
2-1
15'13
xxxxx
5'7 6'3 1'6
1-2
12'16
Jo
7'5 6'3
2-0
13'8
7'5 3'6 6'1
2-1
16'12
xxxxx
Sets/games
4-1
30'22
3-3
29'30
3-3
29'27
1-4
20'29
If Tsonga wins it's a straight quarter-final between him and Andy. If Berdy wins and then beats Nole, it's all down to sets or even games. Although of course if Nole beats Berdy, we're OK...
Nightmare scenario avoided (I think)!!
1. Jo wins. Nole is through and there's a straight QF between Andy and Jo.
2. Berdy wins.
a. Nole beats Berdy. Andy could possibly go through even if he loses to Tsonga (haven't worked out the sets for that one!) Andy certainly through if he beats Tsonga.
b. Berdy beats Nole in straights; Andy through if he beats Tsonga in straights (and Nole then goes out). If Andy only beats Tsonga 2-1, then sets are Berdy 5-3 (62%), Nole 4-3 (57%), Andy 5-4 (55%) so Andy's out.
c. Berdy beats Nole 2-1. Andy goes through if he beats Tsonga. If he wins in straights, Andy and Nole have 5-3 and beat Berdy on 5-4. If Andy beats Tsonga 2-1 then Nole has 5-3, Andy and Berdy have 5-4 and Andy wins on head to head.
E&OE!!!
From the ATP site:
i) [not relevant - fewer than 3 games played]; or
ii) Highest percentage of sets won; or
iii) Highest percentage of games won; or
iv) The player positions on the South African Airways ATP Rankings as of the Monday after the last ATP World Tour tournament of the calendar year.
v) If (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) produce one (1) superior player (first place), or one (1) inferior player (third place), and the two (2) remaining players are tied, the tie between those two (2) players shall be broken by head-to-head record.
supergran
07-11-2012, 22:08
From the ATP site:
i) [not relevant - fewer than 3 games played]; or
ii) Highest percentage of sets won; or
iii) Highest percentage of games won; or
iv) The player positions on the South African Airways ATP Rankings as of the Monday after the last ATP World Tour tournament of the calendar year.
v) If (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) produce one (1) superior player (first place), or one (1) inferior player (third place), and the two (2) remaining players are tied, the tie between those two (2) players shall be broken by head-to-head record.Did you catch it? I have just thrown in the towel!!!:faint::lol::grrr:
Did you catch it? I have just thrown in the towel!!!:faint::lol::grrr:
I've lost the will to live!
Berdy has to beat Djoker on Friday. If not- he needs a set and Tsonga wins in 2 he also makes it. Anything else Murray is in SF.
a. Nole beats Berdy. Andy could possibly go through even if he loses to Tsonga (haven't worked out the sets for that one!) Andy certainly through if he beats Tsonga.
b. Berdy beats Nole in straights; Andy through if he beats Tsonga in straights (and Nole then goes out). If Andy only beats Tsonga 2-1, then sets are Berdy 5-3 (62%), Nole 4-3 (57%), Andy 5-4 (55%) so Andy's out.
c. Berdy beats Nole 2-1. Andy goes through if he beats Tsonga. If he wins in straights, Andy and Nole have 5-3 and beat Berdy on 5-4. If Andy beats Tsonga 2-1 then Nole has 5-3, Andy and Berdy have 5-4 and Andy wins on head to head.
E&OE!!!
One thing's certain - if Nole beats Berdy, he will top the group and play the runner-up from the other group in the semis!
There's obviously lots of scenarios. If Andy and Djoko win, they will go through. If Andy and Berdych win, Andy will go through if he wins in straights, or if he betters Berdych's score by two games (I think). If Tsonga and Djoko win then Andy could well go through, particularly if he gets a set.
Basically if Andy wins in straights he is through.
Edit - sorry hadn't seen the earlier work thanks jaysee
Sallydaisy
07-11-2012, 22:34
We may need some devilish calculations for this ......
Standings based on the sets won/lost in the chart in the first post:-
1 Djokovic - 2W/0L - 4/1
2 Murray - 1W/1L - 3/3
3 Berdych - 1W/1L - 3/3
4 Tsonga - 0W/2L - 1/4
Outcomes based on matches to be played on Friday 9th November:-
If Murray and Djokovic win - Andy qualifies 2nd
It gets complicated if Berdych beats Nole (very unlikely but you never know!):-
Andy wins in 2, Berdych wins in 2 - Andy qualifies 1st (and Nole goes out).
Andy wins in 2, Berdych wins in 3 - Andy qualifies 2nd
Andy wins in 3, Berdych wins in 2 - Andy doesn't qualify!!!
Andy wins in 3, Berdych wins in 3 - Andy qualifies 2nd
And if Andy loses to Tsonga this also applies:-
Andy loses in 2 - doesn't qualify
Andy loses in 3, Berdych wins - Andy doesn't qualify
Andy loses in 3, Djokovic wins - Andy qualifies 2nd
Madeline
07-11-2012, 22:40
Andy, just beat Tsonga in straight sets and save our minds from turmoil please.
It's fairly unlikely that Berdbrain will beat Djoker in straight sets, if at all. I've just looked up their H2H - it's 10-1 to Djokovic!
Sorry, hadn't spotted this thread. You could move over a few hundred posts....
Sallydaisy
07-11-2012, 22:46
I've moved a few posts over to this thread 'cos I think the maths is going to be interesting.
Just as it was last year, and the year before that.
There's now a chart in post #1 with a summary of match/set/game wins.
I've yet to read the 'rules' to see what it all means ...
:dunce:
Sallydaisy
07-11-2012, 22:47
Sorry, hadn't spotted this thread. You could move over a few hundred posts....
I'd started it but then forgot to finish the chart and move it over ... so you didn't miss it at all.
:flowers:
Sorry Sally, Tsonga should be 0W, 2L - unless I've gone totally brain dead...
Sallydaisy
07-11-2012, 22:57
Sorry Sally, Tsonga should be 0W, 2L - unless I've gone totally brain dead...
You're right; edited already!
:thumbup:
Adding in H2H's
Andy v Nole 7-9 (after RR3 it's 7-10)
Andy v Tomas 3-4 (after RR1 it's 4-4)
Andy v Jo 6-1
Nole v Tomas 10-1
Nole v Jo 8-5 (9-5 after RR2)
Tomas v Jo 3-1 (4-1 after RR4)
I imagine someone did the Friday possibilities earlier in this thread, but I can't find them (at least not quickly) and someone seems to think there is no way Tsonga can qualify now (not completely true), so you might find this helpful - it shows who finishes 1st and 2nd in all the possible scenarios:
http://bit.ly/RJlmNk
There's one way Tsonga can go through, one way Andy can finish 1st (and Nole can go out), one way Andy can win and still go out and one way Andy can lose but still go through!
Sallydaisy
07-11-2012, 23:15
Some tweets about this ... firstly from Steven, stats guru in chief, and then Stu Fraser.
Steven @GBtennis (https://twitter.com/GBtennis)
WTF Grp A possibilities: http://bit.ly/RJhZ99 (http://t.co/GbXdzVbW),
AM win means he's 2nd unless TB wins 2-0, when AM's 1st if he wins 2-0 but out if he wins 2-1
... also, Andy can lose but still go through in 2nd, but only if he wins a set AND Djokovic beats Berdych
.. also worth noting that the Murray in 1st place scenario (i.e. Berdych & him both winning 2-0)
is the only one where Djokovic would go out
Stuart Fraser @stu_fraser (https://twitter.com/stu_fraser)
Got calculator out (gotta love this event..):
if Berdych wins both matches in straights & Murray bts Tsonga in straights, then Djokovic out.
Slightly premature to start mathematics but I mention it because
I think it's only way Djokovic would be knocked out. #StattosLoveRoundRobin (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23StattosLoveRoundRobin&src=hash)
And if u hear talk of Murray v Tsonga being must win for Brit, dont listen.
There's scenario where he can go thru with 1 win. OK I'll stop.
If Berdych wins this, it really is time to get the calculators out.
Tsonga win would have effectively meant a quarter final. #ATPTourFinals (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23ATPTourFinals&src=hash)
If Murray wins in straights, he is through no matter what.
If Murray wins 2-1, he has to hope Berdych doesnt win in straights. #Permutations (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Permutations&src=hash)
If Murray loses in straights, he is out.
If Murray loses 2-1, he has to hope Djokovic beats Berdych. #Permutations (https://twitter.com/search?q=%23Permutations&src=hash)
And as @EleanorcrooksPA (https://twitter.com/EleanorcrooksPA) said earlier, Djokovic only needs a set to guarantee progress.
Thanks Steven.
The reason you can't see various hypotheses is 'cos we've started a new thread (http://www.andymurrayfanforum.com/forums/showthread.php?1531-BARCLAYS-ATP-WORLD-TOUR-FINAL-who-will-reach-the-Semi-s) for this and moved various posts over. Also, copied over some tweets of yours and Stu Fraser's - hope that is alright?
Ah, no wonder I couldn't find it here (I followed someone's link to this thread from Twitter)
And yes, that's fine obviously - I'm very honoured to have tweets quoted ;)
Is it correct, there is no permutation of results whereby Andy can still win the group with Djokovic runner-up? Also, which is considered the fairest order for matches to be scheduled on Friday regardless of what is best for ratings?
a. Nole beats Berdy. Andy could possibly go through even if he loses to Tsonga (haven't worked out the sets for that one!) Andy certainly through if he beats Tsonga.
If Nole beats Berdy, Andy just needs one set against Tsonga:-
Nole would have 3 wins and top the group; the other 3 would have one win each
Andy would have 4-5 in sets (44%); Tsonga would have 3-5 (38%); and Berdy would have either 3-5 (Andy clear 2nd) or 4-5 (Andy wins on head to head)
If Andy loses to Tsonga in straights, he would have 3-5 and be beaten by Tsonga's 3-4; Berdy would top both with 4-5 if he took a set off Nole.
Let's just hope Andy gets the evening match so that we know what he needs. If he plays in the afternoon, it's simple - beat Tsonga in straight sets and avoid the complications!
Ah, I thought Steven might have been on the case....:lol:
Sallydaisy
07-11-2012, 23:44
Which H2H do they use?
Because BEFORE the WTF started Andy had a negative H2H against Berdych.
Which H2H do they use?
Because BEFORE the WTF started Andy had a negative H2H against Berdych.
The match between the two relevant players this week!
"the 2 remaining players revert back to head-to-head results with the winner of their match advancing to the semi-finals"
Sallydaisy
08-11-2012, 00:25
This table (from http://letsecondserve.blogspot.co.il/2012/11/world-tour-finals-group-qualification.html) might be useful ...
It works out who goes through based on the results of Friday's matches and seems to correspond with the scenarios given by Jaysee, Steven and Stu Fraser (on twitter) and even the ATP who have worked it out correctly but in a less easy to read format.
.
Djokovic in 2
Djokovic in 3
Berdych in 2
Berdych in 3
Murray in 2
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Murray
2. Berdych
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
Murray in 3
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
Tsonga in 2
1. Djokovic
2. Tsonga
1. Djokovic
2. Berdych
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
Tsonga in 3
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
themass15
08-11-2012, 07:46
Last night on Sky they were saying that Nole might let Berdych win to stop Andy getting through to the semi-finals. I think that is why Nole-Berdych is on first, otherwise he would know exactly what he had to do to qualify.
Not sure I even understand why BerdMan is ahead of Andy now let alone what happens why and when after the last round. Still I'm sure it will all work out right in the end ....... won't it!
Still looking forward to Andy having a pop at The Fed and another Nole-Andy final
I have faith! Go Andy
!
Berdy winning in 3 sets and Andy winnning in Straights is what we want I think ... Andy tops the group then?
Or just a Nole win and an Andy win, much safer :thumbup:
millypops
08-11-2012, 09:19
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Finale%20SF%20Qualifications.aspx
Hope it works link to the Atp site showing all the scenarios
Not sure I even understand why BerdMan is ahead of Andy now let alone what happens why and when after the last round. Still I'm sure it will all work out right in the end ....... won't it!
Still looking forward to Andy having a pop at The Fed and another Nole-Andy final
I have faith! Go Andy
!
I think berdych is ahead just now because he beat tsonga in straights and lost in 3. Andy lost in 3 and won in 3. Will hopefully be rectified with an Andy straight sets win against tsonga
Not sure I even understand why BerdMan is ahead of Andy now let alone what happens why and when after the last round. !
Berdy is only ahead of Andy if he beats Nole, which Andy failed to do! So long as Nole beats Berdy, all Andy needs is 1 set off Tsonga to go through.
Last night on Sky they were saying that Nole might let Berdych win to stop Andy getting through to the semi-finals. I think that is why Nole-Berdych is on first, otherwise he would know exactly what he had to do to qualify.
Yes, that's the scenario we had in 2009 when Andy played first, and Fed and del Potro must have known (although they denied it) exactly what they had to do for both of them to go through and Andy to go out.
I think berdych is ahead just now because he beat tsonga in straights and lost in 3. Andy lost in 3 and won in 3. Will hopefully be rectified with an Andy straight sets win against tsonga
Erm was I watching a different match? I thought Berdych beat Tsonga in 3???
With Nole on first and the possibility of going out if he loses and Andy wins in 2, there's no way, thank goodness that he's likely to throw the match. Not that I think he would anyway - I'll leave that sort of behaviour to lesser men........naming no names!
Sallydaisy
08-11-2012, 11:02
I think berdych is ahead just now because he beat tsonga in straights and lost in 3. Andy lost in 3 and won in 3. Will hopefully be rectified with an Andy straight sets win against tsonga
No he didn't. Berdych beat Tsonga in 3 sets.
Erm was I watching a different match? I thought Berdych beat Tsonga in 3???
Correct.
There is a chart in the first post of this thread with the correct scores recorded.
it also breaks down by sets and games won.
The ATP Rules on working out who goes through get complicated if players are tied on W/L. So, they then look at sets won %, games won % and H2H (not repeating here what has already been posted by Jaysee).
If anyone is suggesting that Berdy is ahead of Muzzah it can only be based on the games won %. They are both 3-3 in sets and have each won 29 games but Andy has lost 30 v Berdy has lost 27. That gives Tomas a slight advantage in % terms but it's immaterial if they are NOT tied.
The chart in this post (http://www.andymurrayfanforum.com/forums/showthread.php?1531-BARCLAYS-ATP-WORLD-TOUR-FINAL-who-will-reach-the-Semi-s&p=110248&viewfull=1#post110248) sets things out very clearly.
It also bears out the scenario painted by the ATP themselves in their calculations. (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Finale%20SF%20Qualifications.aspx)
If Berdy beats Nole in 2 sets then Andy must beat Tsonga in 2 sets or he is out; a 3-set win over Tsonga would mean Andy does not go through.
Has it been confirmed that the Djoko/Berdych match is in the afternoon?
Has it been confirmed that the Djoko/Berdych match is in the afternoon?
Yes.
Nole letting Berdy win the match in order to get Andy out of semies is very very dangerous. If he lets him win in straights, then if Andy beats Tsonga in straights then Andy and Berdy go through to semies and Nole would be out... a little dangerous, I don't think Nole would do that anyway, he's quite sportsman like - more so then a certain person who won the sportsman award yesterday and shouldn't have ...!!!!
Yes.
Thanks jaysee - that makes a lot of sense. I don't think for a minute that Djoko would throw the match but the timing would make it a nonsense for him to do so.
Here are the ATP procedures
ATP site - http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Finale%20SF%20Qualifications.aspx
Semi-final Qualifying Procedure
At the Barclays ATP World Tour Finals, the final standings of each group shall be determined by the first of the following methods that apply:
a) Greatest number of wins;
b) Greatest number of matches played;
Comment: 2-1 won-loss record beats a 2-0 won-loss record; a 1-2 record beats a 1-0 record.
c) Head-to-head results if only two (2) players are tied,
d) If three (3) players are tied, then:
i) If three (3) players each have one (1) win, a player having played less than all three (3) matches is automatically eliminated and the player advancing to the single elimination competition is the winner of the match-up of the two (2) players tied with 1-2 records; or
ii) Highest percentage of sets won; or
iii) Highest percentage of games won; or
iv) The player positions on the South African Airways ATP Rankings as of the Monday after the last ATP World Tour tournament of the calendar year.
v) If (i), (ii), (iii) or (iv) produce one (1) superior player (first place), or one (1) inferior player (third place), and the two (2) remaining players are tied, the tie between those two (2) players shall be broken by head-to-head record.
Comment 1: 1 player has 3 wins and the other 3 players have 1 win. Of the 3 players with 1 win, 1 player has only played in 2 matches while the other 2 players have played 3 matches. The player who has only played 2 matches is eliminated and then the 2 remaining players revert back to head-to-head results with the winner of their match advancing to the semi-finals.
Comment 2: 1 player has 3 wins and the other 3 players have 1 win and they all have played 3 matches. The tie-break for % of sets won has 1 player with a better % than the other two. This player advances to the semi-final round.
Comment 3: 3 players have 2 wins and the other player has 0 wins. The player with 0 wins is eliminated. Of the 3 players with 2 wins, they are ordered by their % of sets won. This produces a 1, 2 & 3 order and the players finishing 1 and 2 move to the semi-final round and the player finishing 3 in % of sets won is eliminated. The player with the best % of sets won is the winner of the group.
Comment 4: 3 players have 2 wins and the other player has 0 wins. The player with 0 wins is eliminated. Of the 3 players with 2 wins, 1 player’s sets won-loss is 5-2 for 71.43%; the other 2 players both have a 4-3 record in sets for 57.14%. In this case there is 1 superior player (71.43%) and the remaining 2 players are tied; it now reverts to the head to head result of the 2 remaining players with the winning player advancing as group runner-up.
Comment 5: 3 players have 2 wins and the other player has 0 wins. The player with 0 wins is eliminated. Of the 3 players with 2 wins, 2 have set won-loss records of 5-3 (62.5%) while the other player is 4-3 (57.14%). In this case we have 1 inferior player (57.14%) and he is eliminated. The remaining two players both advance to the semi-finals with the winner of their head-to-head match advancing as the group winner.
Comment 6: 3 players have 2 wins and the other player has 0 wins. The player with 0 wins is eliminated. Of the 3 players with 2 wins, all have played 3 matches and all 3 have set won-loss records of 5-4 (55.56%). In this case we move to % of games won. The % of games won breaks down like this: 44-40 for 52.38%, 45-43 for 51.14% and 44-43 for 50.57%. This produces a 1, 2 and 3 order of the group and the number 1 player in % of games won is the group winner while the player finishing 2nd in % of games won advances to the semi-finals as the group runner-up. The player with the 3rd best % of games won is eliminated.
According to the ATP rules above, if only 2 players are tied on the number of matches won, they go straight to looking at head to heads, and do not even look at no of sets, games.
They do not seem to say, however, what happens if 2 players are both tied on the number of matches won and in their head to heads.
Sallydaisy
08-11-2012, 12:35
According to the ATP rules above, if only 2 players are tied on the number of matches won, they go straight to looking at head to heads, and do not even look at no of sets, games.
They do not seem to say, however, what happens if 2 players are both tied on the number of matches won and in their head to heads.
I think, from Jaysee's reply to me earlier in this thread, that the H2H used is that of the WTF itself. So if Andy and Tomas are the 2 players tied then Andy would go through because he beat Berdych in their RR match at this year's WTF. I don't think it is based on the normal H2H taken from the ATP website - but I'm sure someone somewhere will know!
When I was looking at the link to those rules I was intrigued to see that according to the ATP Rules 2-1 in matches bests 2-0. I realise now that it covers the eventuality of a player withdrawing after winning 2 and then being replaced by one of the alternates.
b) Greatest number of matches played;
Comment: 2-1 won-loss record beats a 2-0 won-loss record; a 1-2 record beats a 1-0 record.
When I was looking at the link to those rules I was intrigued to see that according to the ATP Rules 2-1 in matches bests 2-0. I'd have thought it would be the other way around i.e. that losing a set is worse than a straight sets win.
I think they mean 2-1 bests 2-0 in matches - not sets. If someone is 2-0 in matches it means that they have not played a match, as all players should play 3 matches. For example if a player is injured after one match and gets replaced by another player for the other 2 matches. If the replacement player only plays 2 matches and wins them, that is not as good as another player who wins 2 matches and loses 1 match.
Sallydaisy
08-11-2012, 12:44
Yes, I'd already edited my post to say that.
If two players are tied and they go on the H2H, I can't understand why Delpo went through in 2009. He and Andy had both won two matches but Andy had beaten Delpo and so should have gone through by this reckoning. Instead they went on the games won/lost differential - which is why Fed was able to engineer Andy out.
Sallydaisy
08-11-2012, 13:04
If two players are tied and they go on the H2H, I can't understand why Delpo went through in 2009. He and Andy had both won two matches but Andy had beaten Delpo and so should have gone through by this reckoning. Instead they went on the games won/lost differential - which is why Fed was able to engineer Andy out.
There was a lot of confusion at the time and I've a feeling that the ATP have tweaked the rules since then. I know H2H came into it but I think it was further down the line beyond win/loss %'s for sets/games which IIRC is what determined the outcome of the 2009 RR's.
Just found this in some old notes of mine and this article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/tennis/8383798.stm) seems to confirm the 2009 decision was on games W/L %.
From the BBC
"Only a three-set win for Del Potro would leave the Scot's place in doubt, at which point it would come down to the percentage of games won by Murray, Federer and Del Potro."
I was interested to read in the Times today that previously in a 3 way tie in matches/sets - they decided the winner on games and then decided the runner up by the head-to-head result of the 2nd and 3rd.
That explains why some people thought that a 2-0 for Del Potro over Federer would have meant that Andy was out i.e. Del Potro would have been group winner and Federer runner up on the basis of h2h with Murray - except that they wouldnt have been tied on sets - so Murray would have been through.
Madeline
08-11-2012, 13:48
Edit - forget it, I see it has already been answered.
If two players are tied and they go on the H2H, I can't understand why Delpo went through in 2009. He and Andy had both won two matches but Andy had beaten Delpo and so should have gone through by this reckoning. Instead they went on the games won/lost differential - which is why Fed was able to engineer Andy out.
They couldn't do head to head in 2009 because that only applied to two players and all three players had two wins and the same number of sets, so it was down to the number of games. I think they've now changed the rule so that once they've established either the first or the third place by number of games, it would go back to head-to-head between the other two. However thankfully we now can't end up with three players on the same number of sets this year.
Sallydaisy
08-11-2012, 21:40
GROUP B STANDINGS
I think Ferrer must beat Tipsy (or possibly the alternate) in 2 sets to stand a chance of being 2nd from Group B. If Del Potro were to beat Federer 2 straights I think he'd go through as 2nd from Group B because he's already better than Ferrer in sets and games %. Federer would probably go through even if he lost to Potty.
...........
Federer
2W
0L
Ferrer
1W
1L
Del Potro
1W
1L
Tipsarevic
0W
2L
Federer
xxxxx
46 67
0-2
10'13
3'6, 1'6
0-2
4'12
Ferrer
64 76
2-0
13'10
xxxxx
3'6 6'3 4'6
1-2
13'15
Del Potro
6'3 3'6 6'4
2-1
15'13
xxxxx
06 46
0-2
4'12
Tipsarevic
6'3 6'1
2-0
12'4
60 64
2-0
12'4
xxxxx
Sets/games
4-0
25'14
2-3
25'26
3-2
25'19
0-4
8'24
LC the fan
08-11-2012, 22:07
I am just leaving it to the guys with the calculators......and praying that the djoker beats Berdie tomorrow afternoon
There doesn't seem to be so much info around on the different possibilities in group B.
From the ATP site:
Singles Group B qualification scenarios after the completion of the 2nd round of the event's group stage:
1) Regardless of score, if R. FEDERER defeats J. DEL POTRO and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC, then R. FEDERER wins the group and D. FERRER qualifies 2nd.
2) Regardless of score, if R. FEDERER defeats J. DEL POTRO and J. TIPSAREVIC defeats D. FERRER, then R. FEDERER wins the group and J. DEL POTRO qualifies 2nd.
3) Regardless of score, if J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER and J. TIPSAREVIC defeats D. FERRER, then J. DEL POTRO wins the group and R. FEDERER qualifies 2nd.
4) If J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER in 2 sets and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC in 2 sets, then J. DEL POTRO wins the group and R. FEDERER qualifies 2nd.
5) If J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER in 2 sets and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC in 3 sets, then J. DEL POTRO wins the group and R. FEDERER qualifies 2nd.
6) If J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER in 3 sets and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC in 2 sets, then R. FEDERER wins the group and J. DEL POTRO qualifies 2nd.
7) If J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER in 3 sets and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC in 3 sets, then R. FEDERER wins the group and J. DEL POTRO qualifies 2nd.
If Federer would rather play the winner of Group A rather than the runner up, he could lose to Del Potty in 2 sets.
Aussie Andy
09-11-2012, 03:45
So complicated...
I'm tempted to say let's wait for tonight and see what happens! Anyway, I think Andy should win in straights. And why would Novak want to lose? Surely he wants to win WTF?
From the ATP site:
Singles Group B qualification scenarios after the completion of the 2nd round of the event's group stage: 1) Regardless of score, if R. FEDERER defeats J. DEL POTRO and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC, then R. FEDERER wins the group and D. FERRER qualifies 2nd.
2) Regardless of score, if R. FEDERER defeats J. DEL POTRO and J. TIPSAREVIC defeats D. FERRER, then R. FEDERER wins the group and J. DEL POTRO qualifies 2nd.
3) Regardless of score, if J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER and J. TIPSAREVIC defeats D. FERRER, then J. DEL POTRO wins the group and R. FEDERER qualifies 2nd.
4) If J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER in 2 sets and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC in 2 sets, then J. DEL POTRO wins the group and R. FEDERER qualifies 2nd.
5) If J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER in 2 sets and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC in 3 sets, then J. DEL POTRO wins the group and R. FEDERER qualifies 2nd.
6) If J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER in 3 sets and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC in 2 sets, then R. FEDERER wins the group and J. DEL POTRO qualifies 2nd.
7) If J. DEL POTRO defeats R. FEDERER in 3 sets and D. FERRER defeats J. TIPSAREVIC in 3 sets, then R. FEDERER wins the group and J. DEL POTRO qualifies 2nd.
Looking at 4 & 5 and also 6 & 7, if DelPo and Ferrer both win then it doesn't matter how many sets Ferrer takes. Could have been simpler, good old ATP
JAMES4578
09-11-2012, 09:52
So complicated...
I'm tempted to say let's wait for tonight and see what happens! Anyway, I think Andy should win in straights. And why would Novak want to lose? Surely he wants to win WTF?
Not saying Nole wants to lose,but if he went to down to Berdych he could still qualify for the semis but would want to take a set.
Golden Lady
09-11-2012, 10:33
This reminds me so much of the WTF 2010, when I had tickets for both semis. On the final day of round Robin for Andy's group, we needed Fed to see off Sod so that Andy only needed a set in the evening match against Ferrer. Everyone was nervous about Fed but if I remember rightly, he did need to win that match to qualify in first place. Fed therefore did the biz and Andy came out in the evening and I do recall he was fairly nervous but he did it in straights. The feeling when he won that first set and I knew I would see him live on the Saturday was unbelievable! Let's hope that the same scenario plays out today.
I think if Nole or Federer only need one set in a match rather than to win the whole match, I guess they will do their best to try and win the match in 2 sets, as the match will be shorter. If they lost a set, then it would have to be a 3 set match, whoever wins, and they would be more tired for the semis.
supergran
09-11-2012, 16:02
Sorry to be a nuisance.....what if Nole loses this match????
Sorry to be a nuisance.....what if Nole loses this match????
Andy then has to beat Tsonga.
This table (from http://letsecondserve.blogspot.co.il/2012/11/world-tour-finals-group-qualification.html) might be useful ...
It works out who goes through based on the results of Friday's matches and seems to correspond with the scenarios given by Jaysee, Steven and Stu Fraser (on twitter) and even the ATP who have worked it out correctly but in a less easy to read format.
Djokovic in 2
Djokovic in 3
Berdych in 2
Berdych in 3
Murray in 2
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Murray
2. Berdych
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
Murray in 3
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
Tsonga in 2
1. Djokovic
2. Tsonga
1. Djokovic
2. Berdych
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
Tsonga in 3
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Djokovic
2. Murray
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
1. Berdych
2. Djokovic
Nole will now go into the semis as the top player of group A.
If Andy beats Tsonga, or if Andy loses to Tsonga in 3 sets, then Andy goes through to the semis.
Andy will only be prevented from going through if he loses to Tsonga in 2 sets.
supergran
09-11-2012, 16:17
Thanks for all info.
LC the fan
09-11-2012, 16:25
Shame - I like Jo-Willy......but not that much tonight !!! ;)
Tsonga will have to play his best tennis to win tonight, Andy is much the stronger player, especially with Andy's recent confidence boosts and the fact Lendl is with him in London. I'm pretty confident Andy will win in striaghts (and hope so too!).
As much as I love Tsonga too, I hope this is his last match of the season.
Tsonga is going to come out trying to win because if Tsonga beats Andy in straight sets Tsonga will go through to the semis. In some ways it would have been better if Nole had beaten Berdych in 3, cos then Tsonga would not have had a chance to progress so probably wouldn't put his all into it.
banskogirl
09-11-2012, 18:37
Think Andy will do this :) he will come out ready!
patmoren
09-11-2012, 18:47
Andy certainly should win. He has a winning match record against him and Jo Willy hasn't been playing very well recently. Will be extremely disappointed if he doesn't win
wriggles
10-11-2012, 12:08
Just to confirm, is Andy playing fedex on Sunday?
We don't know yet - if Delpo wins in two sets this afternoon he will top the group I think.
Just to confirm, is Andy playing fedex on Sunday?
Depends on the result of Potty vs Fed, If Potty beats Fed in striaghts in Andy will be playing Potty in the semies.
Depends on the result of Potty vs Fed, If Potty beats Fed in striaghts in Andy will be playing Potty in the semies.
Also if Tipsy beats Ferrer then Del P just has to win to top the group.
wriggles
10-11-2012, 13:18
Ah yes thanks, hmmm, I'd love another go at fed but dangerous
millypops
10-11-2012, 14:15
I feel ill listening to Sue B on at the moment, did anybody hear the comment made about Fed being arrogant towards Andy???
I feel ill listening to Sue B on at the moment, did anybody hear the comment made about Fed being arrogant towards Andy???
No - what was said?
All the best to potty today! Really hope he beats Fed
I feel ill listening to Sue B on at the moment, did anybody hear the comment made about Fed being arrogant towards Andy??? Well he is and always has been.
millypops
10-11-2012, 14:44
No - what was said?
Sue B said that Andy fans thought that Fed was often disrespectful to Andy in the things he said, and she sort of said "so what" almost that Fed could say what he liked as he was such a great player.
I think that was the gist of it
Potty making Fed's life difficult which is nice :) 5-5 in the first set
WimbledonAce
10-11-2012, 16:07
I feel ill listening to Sue B on at the moment, did anybody hear the comment made about Fed being arrogant towards Andy???
I refuse to watch beeb when feds on. Makes me nauseous.
Sue B said that Andy fans thought that Fed was often disrespectful to Andy in the things he said, and she sort of said "so what" almost that Fed could say what he liked as he was such a great player.
I think that was the gist of it
That sounds like a Croft remark - I thought better of Sue Barker than that - shame on her!
Actually if Fed's not playing at his best (which he might not be, given the loss today), I think I'd rather Andy was playing him and not Delpo, who can be very tricky.
LC the fan
10-11-2012, 20:49
Let s face it and say with confidence....if Andy gets his head on, and I really think he wants this like he wanted the Olympic gold, he can take on Fed or potty and defeat either.
MurrayAOne
11-11-2012, 17:13
Let s face it and say with confidence....if Andy gets his head on, and I really think he wants this like he wanted the Olympic gold, he can take on Fed or potty and defeat either.
Spot on!
Powered by vBulletin® Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.