MONTE CARLO 2013, RND 3: Stan Stuns Andy 6-1 6-2

[cazza99]

Andy's up against Stan the Man in Round 3 of the Monte Carlo Masters.
Our Muzzah leads their H2H by 8-4 which is a nice stat to read ...
... except Stan is 2-0 up when it comes to playing on the clay.
But, as Madeline says below, that last claycourt win was in 2008.
Since their last match on clay Andy has surged ahead both in rankings and in their win/loss ratio where Andy has won 6/7 of their most recent matches.

No knowing how this one will go but for Andy's ambitions on clay it had better be a Murray win!!!
;)

The match is on Thur 18th April, appox 13.30 UK time.
---------------------------------------------------




Year
Tournament & City
Surface
Round
Winner & Score


2012
Tokyo (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/Tokyo.aspx)
Japan
Hard
Q
Murray, Andy (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx)
6-2, 3-6, 6-2 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2012
London Olympics (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)
Great Britain
Grass
R64
Murray, Andy (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx)
6-3, 6-3


2011
ATP World Tour Masters 1000 Shanghai (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/Shanghai.aspx)
Shanghai, China
Hard
R16
Murray, Andy (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx)
6-4, 3-6, 6-3 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2010
US Open (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/US-Open.aspx)
NY, U.S.A.
Hard
R32
Wawrinka, Stanislas (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Stanislas-Wawrinka.aspx)
6-7(3), 7-6(4), 6-3, 6-3 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2009
Wimbledon (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/Wimbledon.aspx)
Great Britain
Grass
R16
Murray, Andy (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx)
2-6, 6-3, 6-3, 5-7, 6-3 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2008
US Open (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/US-Open.aspx)
NY, U.S.A.
Hard
R16
Murray, Andy (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx)
6-1, 6-3, 6-3 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2008
ATP Masters Series Canada (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/Montreal.aspx)
Toronto, Canada
Hard
R16
Murray, Andy (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx)
6-2, 0-6, 6-4 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2008
ATP Masters Series Rome (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/Rome.aspx)
Italy
Clay
R32
Wawrinka, Stanislas (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Stanislas-Wawrinka.aspx)
6-2, 7-6(5) Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2008
Marseille (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/Marseille.aspx)
France
Hard
R16
Murray, Andy (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx)
3-6, 7-6(5), 6-1 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2008
Doha (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/Doha.aspx)
Qatar
Hard
F
Murray, Andy (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Andy-Murray.aspx)
6-4, 4-6, 6-2 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2006
ATP Masters Series Miami (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Tournaments/Miami.aspx)
FL, U.S.A.
Hard
R128
Wawrinka, Stanislas (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Stanislas-Wawrinka.aspx)
7-5, 3-6, 6-4 Stats (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)


2005
SUI vs. GBR WG PO (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=MC10&oId=W367#)
Geneva, Switzerland
Clay
RR
Wawrinka, Stanislas (http://www.atpworldtour.com/Tennis/Players/Top-Players/Stanislas-Wawrinka.aspx)
6-3, 7-6(5), 6-4

[Sallydaisy]

But feel free to chatter about Andy v Stan the Man as much as you like.
;)

[Madeline]

H2H is 5-4 in Andy's favour, but Stan won their only two encounters on clay. That was back in 2005 and 2008, though. In fact 3 of Stan's 4 wins were between 2005 and 2008. I'm quite hopeful, but a bit wary - they always have close matches. BO5 would definitely favour Andy IMO, but BO3 might be tougher.

[banskogirl]

I always feel sorry for Stan being in the goats shadow, but don't want funny business tomorrow!

[karanga]

Very best of luck Andy. :yahoo: :yahoo: :yahoo:

[ljs]

Different Andy now , hopefully he disposes of Stan

[lynne]

The Very Best of Luck Andy!!!:thumbup::thumbup:

[Caro]

Play your best Andy, and there is only one winner!

Looking at the h2h, I saw 2 of those matches live. The one at Wimbledon in 2009 (first mtach under the roof - missed my last train home and ended up getting in at 4.30am!!) and the very first one in DC away to Switzerland.

Jeremy Bates was captain at the the time and made a dreadful decision on day 1 of the tie. Andy was our no 2 then and Stan Swiss no 2 and they should have played each other in the final rubber on day 3 but Jeremy decided to put Andy in as our no 1 so he didn't have to play Fed in the first match and played Stan instead. That gave out all the wrong vibes in our opinion and the whole team kind of looked beaten from the get go. It was like Jeremy was saying there was no way Andy could beat Fed and he must have felt his captain didn't believe in him. What a difference to the captain and team vibe we have now!!

.... Sorry, I digress but it brought back memories

[Jane]

All the very best of luck, Andy:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:

[Andy's girl]

Good luck Andy (Everyone in Dunblane is routing for you) :boogie:

[traveller7]

Come on Andy!

[traveller7]

Bum didnt get my FTM in intime!

[Aussie Andy]

Andy opens the match

[Aussie Andy]

And holds serve. Good.

[Aussie Andy]

Stan serving:

0-15
15-15
30-15
30-30
30-40 1st break point for Andy!
40-40 Stan saves it...
Adv Murray!
40-40
Adv Wawrinka

Stan holds serve, 1-all.

[traveller7]

And andy is broken 1-2 down

[Aussie Andy]

Andy serving:

0-15
0-30
0-40 NOOOO!
15-40
30-40 One more to save...

Ouch! Andy is broken! Stan leads 2-1 in the first set. :grrr: :sofa:

[Aussie Andy]

Stan serving:

15-0
15-15
live scoreboard skips to 30-30
40-30

Stan holds, leading 3-1.

[Jane]

Stan leads 4-1 Come on Andy!!!

[traveller7]

Now leads 4-1
murray fallen apart since first two games!

[Aussie Andy]

Andy serving:

0-15
15-15
15-30
scoreboard skips again

Stan double-breaks to lead 4-1. :sofa:

[Aussie Andy]

Stan serving:

15-0
15-15
30-15
40-15
40-30

Stan leads 5-1 in the first set.

[traveller7]

5- 1 oh dear oh dear

[JennieF]

Oh Lordy. Shall I ask someone if there is a livestream? Come on Andy!!!

[Jane]

Lost the first set 1-6:confused::crying:

[JennieF]

Oh no! Why oh why??

[Aussie Andy]

Andy serving:

0-15
0-30 Andy, COME ON!
0-40
15-40 That's better, come on...

Stan breaks again and takes the first set 6-1. Our Andy's been breadsticked!

[traveller7]

Not good needs to pull himself together sharpish!

[Aussie Andy]

Stan serving

15-0
30-0
40-0

Stan holds, leads 1-0 in the second set.

[Reef]

What on earth is going on......??? I know Stan is dangerous on this surface but 1-6.......:facepalm:

[traveller7]

Looks like H2H on clay will be 3-0 soon :(

[Aussie Andy]

Andy serving:

15-0
30-0
40-0 Yes! Hold, HOLD, HOLD!

Andy holds! Phew! 1-all.

[Aussie Andy]

Stan serving:

15-0
30-0
40-0

Stan holds. He leads 2-1.

[traveller7]

Come on murray get this game

[traveller7]

finally some light - 2-2

[Aussie Andy]

Andy serving:

0-15 (In other news, Fleming and Marray are 4-6, 1-4 down)
0-30
15-30 Hold, please, Andy
30-30 (F&M now 1-5 down)
30-40 NO! HOLD Andy!
40-40 Better, now finish off!
Adv Murray YES! :bravo:

Andy holds! 2-all.

Fleming and Marray lost 4-6, 1-6

[Jan62]

:grrr: Pesky work getting in the way of my tennis again. And double :grrr: - Stan takes the first 6-1. What on earth happened there? Knew it was going to be a difficult match, but that's taking it a bit far. Come on Muzz !

[Aussie Andy]

Stan serving:

15-0
30-0
40-0
40-15

Stan holds, leads 3-2.

[JAMES4578]

A worrying start but 2 all in the 2nd.,let's hope Andy can really get going!

[Reef]

Andy was right to be worried about this one but wrong to be overwhelmed...

[Jan]

WHAT?????????
Just home - thought I'd catch most of the match. Not looking good at all.

[cazza99]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah

[traveller7]

wawrinka has broken again to lead 4-2 now

[Aussie Andy]

Andy serving:

15-0
15-15
15-30
30-30
30-40

Stan broke Andy. Oh no. Stan leads 4-2.

[Jan62]

OK Andy. Now focus please. I like Stan - my favourite Swiss :) - but not so much that I want him to beat you. Come on, you can do it.

[lynne]

Not good.........:facepalm:

[Reef]

Please............not in front of Lendl! Surely not worried about being No 3 again?

[Aussie Andy]

Stan serving:

15-0
30-0
30-15
40-15

Stan holds, leads 5-2.

[Jan62]

:facepalm: This is not good. Please Mr Lendl, send some instructions by ESP.......

[JAMES4578]

Just not happening today and in a hole now, come on Andy!

[Jane]

Stan wins 6-1, 6-2 :crying::crying::crying:

[traveller7]

All over he takes it 6-1 6-2 andy just wasnt there such a shame

[JennieF]

What were the boos for as Andy left court??

[Aussie Andy]

Andy serving:

0-15
scoreboard skips
15-30
scoreboard skips
30-40

Stan wins 6-1, 6-2 :facepalm: :crying:

[Aussie Andy]

Is this the end of the World No. 2?

Not permanently, of course.

[SamP]

That's probably his worst scoreline in 2, 3 years.

But its fine, just needs go away and work out what went wrong.

Not sure why that went so wrong mind, he played a great first game!

[Reef]

Unbelievable. Back to No 3 - and looking like he shouldn't have been at 2. SO disappointed. Didn't expect this.:facepalm::grrr:

[pabbers]

A very poor performance from Andy compared to yesterday - there again, yesterday's oppo didn't amount to much. Andy said this match would be a measure of where his clay court game is at..........oh dear. Very disappointed for him. He really really struggles with this surface and if he wants to get to #1 he's going to have to conquer it sooner rather than later, as have the 3 above him (and I include Rafa there of course). So does Andy go back to #3 now?

[Jan]

oh boy. Didn't see enough to judge how they were playing - was it just very good from Stan, really bad from Andy or a mixture of both? Wonder what Ivan will have to say?

[lynne]

Bad day at the office...............:facepalm:

[rk350]

That was horrendous, I always forget what Andy's like on clay! I wonder if he'll keep playing the full clay court stretch in the next few years? Oh well, grass is only two months away!

[traveller7]

Yep back to 3 sadly - that didnt last long!

[Jan62]

:smashed::sad:Oh no. WR#2 didn't last long did it? That makes Stan's H2H on clay 3-0, good win for him. But :crying: for Andy. And now what am I meant to do? Its AGES till Madrid. :crying::crying:

[JennieF]

He needs to buy a pad in Monte Carlo and get lots of clay court practice!

[SamP]

Wawrinka was outstanding, his 12th match on clay this year. Huge advantage for him against Andy.

[cazza99]

:crying:

I don't think we should worry too much. It is, after all, Andy's first clay court tournament of the season.

[pabbers]

:smashed::sad:Oh no. WR#2 didn't last long did it? That makes Stan's H2H on clay 3-0, good win for him. But :crying: for Andy. And now what am I meant to do? Its AGES till Madrid. :crying::crying:

Andy needs more clay practice - is there anywhere else he could play ahead of Madrid?

[Bardot]

What were the boos for as Andy left court??

The boos were louder when he came on court, dreadful.

The lack of clay court play was telling, Andy's 2nd match compared to Stan's 11th.

[pabbers]

The lack of clay court play was telling, Andy's 2nd match compared to Stan's 11th.

Ah, so that could explain it in part then.

[cazza99]

The boos were louder when he came on court, dreadful.



Were there a lot of Swiss in the audience? They know how to boo.

[Reef]

Is this the end of the World No. 2?

Not permanently, of course.

Well, he needs to get his clay court game sorted. No 2 players should NOT be thrashed on any surface so he deserves to lose that spot IMHO. Hope Lendl gives him a good talking to. It will be the first time he's seen a demolition of his charge and let's hope it's the last.

[cazza99]

Neil Harman ‏@NeilHarmanTimes 5m


Murray into press within two minutes of end of match, at a loss to know why he played so badly. "I know I have to improve on that," he said

[patmoren]

Very disappointing. Forgot to renew his batteries.

[Bardot]

Were there a lot of Swiss in the audience? They know how to boo.
Maybe there was a hangover from last year when Andy taunted the injured Simon with drop shots but then again there wasn't any booing yesterday. I notice Harman suggesting on twitter that Andy brings it on himself with his "body language", idiot.

Sky showed some of Andy's press conference, said he was making too many errors which meant he was dropping the ball short to compensate and you don't get away with that against Stan, basically "just one of those days" and he'll have much to work on before Madrid. Doesn't sound like he'll be playing anywhere else beforehand.

[Jan62]

Well, he needs to get his clay court game sorted. No 2 players should NOT be thrashed on any surface so he deserves to lose that spot IMHO. Hope Lendl gives him a good talking to. It will be the first time he's seen a demolition of his charge and let's hope it's the last.

Oooohhh Reef, that's quite harsh! Agree, needs to get to grips with clay if he's going to get to WR#1, but I'm prepared to forgive him losing his 2nd match on the surface. Disappointed of course, and definitely needs to do better. But he's a work in progress on the dirt, and I'm sure Mr Lendl is going to have something to say to him!

[scrapaddict]

VERY disappointing but he will be more disappointed than me!!!
Stan did play very well but Murray just wasn't with it today.

[cazza99]

Maybe there was a hangover from last year when Andy taunted the injured Simon with drop shots but then again there wasn't any booing yesterday. I notice Harman suggesting on twitter that Andy brings it on himself with his "body language", idiot.


There may also be a hangover amongst the Swiss from the ATP World Tour Final as the Swiss got the boos going there.


Piers Newbery ‏@piersnewbery 2m

Murray press conference almost immediately on Sky - "24 unforced errors is far too many, I started hitting shorter, he was able to dictate."

[supergran]

Only second match on clay, first test which he failed against an in-form Stan. Hope he just puts this behind him. I think he will, he seemed ok in the interview. We know it's not his best surface but he usually improves as the season gets under way. I'm sure Lendl and he will put a lot of work in prior to Madrid and Rome. Just hope he can play much better than today. But folks, he lost a match, nobody died.....he is the real No 2 so he'll be back there.

[supergran]

Andy needs more clay practice - is there anywhere else he could play ahead of Madrid?Barcelona but he's not going to play.

[ljs]

Didnt see any of this , kinda glad i didnt by the look of that score :facepalm:

[Reef]

I wonder why he's not playing Barcelona? I would have thought the best plan would be to get straight back to tournament & get some matches under his belt - still what do I know??

[hfwardhouse]

So disappointed - it was 4-1 in the first when I had to go and feed lambs and when I got back it was all over :crying: .... maybe it was just as well I wasn't here?! First 2 games were fine and then it all went pear shaped :sad:

[supergran]

Never mind Jane...he's not a machine, he's just a Man and we love him in oh so many ways....He's just our Man! Geddit? He'll be back.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup::thumbup: :thumbup::thumbup:

[Elenive]

:sad: Oh, not the result we wanted :sad:

[cazza99]

Every cloud has a silver lining - if Andy gets less matches in the clay court season he will be fresher for the grass season.

[jeannie13]

Well, he needs to get his clay court game sorted. No 2 players should NOT be thrashed on any surface so he deserves to lose that spot IMHO. Hope Lendl gives him a good talking to. It will be the first time he's seen a demolition of his charge and let's hope it's the last.

Why should Lendl give him a good talking to? Lendl is there to try to sort out Andy's game on clay & to work out how he can help Andy improve on this surface. It's only Andy's 2nd match on clay this year-Wawrinka about 12th.I think that their relationsship is more mature than some people think.
I agree with what ARod once said -that clay is for making pots!!

[david1610]

Having to work today. A bit surprised at the margin but not the result. Stan has been in very good form on clay and has the extra gear in him at times - today must have been one of them.
Mmm....

[Andy's girl]

I missed the game (out shopping). Gutted at the result but onwards and upwards as they say ! He'll do better next time and he is still our Andy whatever he does.

[Alis]

Oh dear - poor Andy - but rather now than at RG. Onwards and upwards folks!

[rimarli]

I am sure Lendl will be helpful and critical as that is not his style of coaching. I had a feeling that this would be a poor result as Stan has had so much practice and Andy really needed another slightly easier match to get in the swing. Rafa seems to have the easiest draw! I still do not feel that these draws are totally unbiased. Andy is only 10 points behind Federer who has 1000 to defend at Madrid so has to win to gain any points. Andy only needs to get to the 3rd round to overtake him again so no need to panic.

He is not the only top player to have clay as his bad surface. Sampras, Becker and even Federer did not consider it a good surface.

[Caro]

What the heck happened?? :shocked::shocked: Wasn't able to check livescores this morning and only checked just now!! I'm shocked by that score line! Will read through the thread a bit later when I have time.

EDIT: I've read through the thread now and it seems just a bad day at the office coupled with Stan playing well. I hadn't realised how well he had done on clay this year. Hope Andy is not too down on himself - clay is just not his thing. Bring on the grass!!

[cazza99]

Del Potro and Berdy have also been knocked out and they are both good on clay, so its not just Andy who has had a bad day.

[Sallydaisy]

Disappointed but perhaps it isn't such a surprise. Andy's 2nd match on the devil dirt and Stan's 12th so far this year always meant the Swiss might be the more comfortable of the 2 out there.

Lendl is very well aware that Andy struggles on clay so even though I doubt he's chuffed about Andy's loss/performance I suspect they'll be philosphical about it, analyse what happened, and why, and see how they can work out a way for Andy to do better next time.

I know the season is tough with 8 weeks on clay and then 4 weeks of grass events with 2 Grand Slams chucked in for good measure but, on the basis that Andy might not go too deep at the moment, I do think he might benefit from entering at least one lower level clay event e.g. Barcelona, Bucharest, Estoril or Munich. Otherwise he'll be playing only back-to-back Madrid/Rome Masters ahead of Roland Garros and risk not getting much match practice at all before that Grand Slam!

[KnightOwl]

I must admit, I always get a slightly sinking feeling when I see Andy's up against Stan...always a tough match-up!

[hfwardhouse]

I must admit, I always get a slightly sinking feeling when I see Andy's up against Stan...always a tough match-up!

Me too ... and today was no exception - Stan was on his game and Andy wasn't up to that level yet .... ah well - onwards and upwards!

[JAMES4578]

Whilst I was a bit apprehensive with this match on only Andy's 2nd clay court outing this year I didn't envisage anything like this crushing defeat. However whilst gutting think we could put in into some perspective and sure Andy will improve as the season progresses but Andy along with Lendl really need to analyse the best way forward. I think Andy will likely always find this the most challenging part of the year but of course he has reached semis on the surface before.

[david1610]

I do think he might benefit from entering at least one lower level clay event e.g. Barcelona, Bucharest, Estoril or Munich.
Somehow I find myself in absolute, utter, complete agreement with you! :)

[Linda]

I thought that this would be a long, hard fought match. I realised that Stan would be the favourite on clay but thought that if it was a very long match then Andy could win due to his physical fitness. I was sitting behind two very nice Swiss ladies who were sure that Andy would win, even after Stan had taken the first set, as they said that Stan is mentally weak and cannot close out matches. However that was not the case today.

[david1610]

Just watched in on catchup on TennisTV.
Tennis scoring can be misleading at times e.g. I thought Andy's opponent played well yesterday - much better than the first set scoreline indicated.
Andy played some games well but did not get going really. Other than that I do not really understand clay.
But FWIW I watched the Shanghai final online with Djokovic from last year and the tennis really seemed out of this world. Even though Andy has won a Master's and had a GS final this year, that seemed to be on a different level!

[cazza99]

The Slice ‏@TheSliceTweets 4m

Can someone please identify this player? #atp #playerparty #scared http://twitpic.com/cka5x0

[cazza99]

oop is out for Friday - http://www.monte-carlorolexmasters.com/Schedule/Live-OOP.aspx

[supergran]

Think I'll take myself on a little shopping trip now there's no Andy.;):boogie:

[HoopGirl]

Really disappointed, a big blow - although sometimes the draw works in a players favour allowing them to play their way into form - not so for Andy this time.

Is this the end of the no 2 ranking then?

[Alis]

Could it be a secret ploy - Andy lulling his opponents into a false sense of security until Roland Garros when he will shock us all by winning? Would be good wouldn't it? ;)

[supergran]

Really disappointed, a big blow - although sometimes the draw works in a players favour allowing them to play their way into form - not so for Andy this time.

Is this the end of the no 2 ranking then?Fed is now No 2 as Andy did not reach the quarters. Andy back to 3 but that could change again very quickly.

[DaveArneRiise]

Stan has really improved this year. I think he had a lull somewhat last year. However has played some phenomenal tennis throughout the course of this year. Was always threatening a big upset and unfortunately Andy was on the end of that. Wouldn't read too much into it. Could be a good thing, will make Andy focus on the necessary changes in order to maximise his clay court game for Roland Garros. Could turn out to be one of Andy's best results of the year in that sense.

[Alis]

Does anyone have a link to Andy's press conference?

[Hawkeye]

http://www.andymurrayfanforum.com/forums/showthread.php?44-Newspaper-and-internet-reports&p=134701&viewfull=1#post134701

[Fina]

Does anyone have a link to Andy's press conference?

Alis, this is the link for the one after Stan's match http://www1.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/tennis/8649363/murray-slumps-to-shock-defeat :sad:

[banskogirl]

Disappointed but perhaps it isn't such a surprise. Andy's 2nd match on the devil dirt and Stan's 12th so far this year always meant the Swiss might be the more comfortable of the 2 out there.


I know the season is tough with 8 weeks on clay and then 4 weeks of grass events with 2 Grand Slams chucked in for good measure but, on the basis that Andy might not go too deep at the moment, I do think he might benefit from entering at least one lower level clay event e.g. Barcelona, Bucharest, Estoril or Munich. Otherwise he'll be playing only back-to-back Madrid/Rome Masters ahead of Roland Garros and risk not getting much match practice at all before that Grand Slam!

Completely agree Sally! It's not just clay practise Andy needs, it's match practise! If he doesn't enter lower level clay before Madrid he's going to be in the same position, with even less confidence. We all know what Andy's head can do to his game and its a shame when on a good clay day he's up there with the rest :grouphug:

[Reef]

Why should Lendl give him a good talking to? Lendl is there to try to sort out Andy's game on clay & to work out how he can help Andy improve on this surface. It's only Andy's 2nd match on clay this year-Wawrinka about 12th.I think that their relationsship is more mature than some people think.
I agree with what ARod once said -that clay is for making pots!!

Yes I am in complete agreement. Wrong choice of words for which I apologise. By "talking to" I meant in a constructive sense.

Sorry, I get over-emotional when Andy has a bad loss.

[pabbers]

I do think he might benefit from entering at least one lower level clay event e.g. Barcelona, Bucharest, Estoril or Munich. Otherwise he'll be playing only back-to-back Madrid/Rome Masters ahead of Roland Garros and risk not getting much match practice at all before that Grand Slam!

I agree too!

[Jan62]

Agree with those saying he should try to fit in another tourney before Madrid. However, he said yesterday that he feels he needs to play against top players to really understand what's working and what's not. So depending which tourney he entered at last minute, and the draw of course, he might not get that opportunity and it would turn into effectively practice. I am sure Ivan and Andy know what's best to do, we just have to trust them to get it right. Even if we would like a chance to see Andy in a few more matches over the next 2 weeks rather than suffer withdrawal symptoms. Again. :)

[Bardot]

Just watched in on catchup on TennisTV.
Tennis scoring can be misleading at times e.g. I thought Andy's opponent played well yesterday - much better than the first set scoreline indicated.
Andy played some games well but did not get going really. Other than that I do not really understand clay.
But FWIW I watched the Shanghai final online with Djokovic from last year and the tennis really seemed out of this world. Even though Andy has won a Master's and had a GS final this year, that seemed to be on a different level!

Mr Lendl wasn't in Shanghai nor was he present at the Olympics when Andy played some of his best tennis. Rather than Andy playing instinctively, is there information overload when Ivan is around, especially when transferring to a new surface? Just a thought.

[LC the fan]

He does need a lot more clay practice and Barcelona is definitely favourite although he'd have to check on who is playing where. I THINK HE JUST NEEDS MORE TIME ON CLAY IN COMPETITIVE SITUATIONS? I always thought this would be a tough one but ....such a shoreline ! Sooooo disappointing

[david1610]

Agree with those saying he should try to fit in another tourney before Madrid. However, he said yesterday that he feels he needs to play against top players to really understand what's working and what's not. So depending which tourney he entered at last minute, and the draw of course, he might not get that opportunity and it would turn into effectively practice. I am sure Ivan and Andy know what's best to do, we just have to trust them to get it right. Even if we would like a chance to see Andy in a few more matches over the next 2 weeks rather than suffer withdrawal symptoms. Again. :)

I started to write something and then thought why not check Andy on clay and I went back and looked at the records.

2013 MC 2 clay matches. No victory against a top twenty player.
In 2012 Andy played RG (five matches) and 3 other clay tourneys - Monte Carlo , Barcelona and Rome (8 matches). In those eight matches he only played somebody ranked inside the top 20 (rankings at the time) once - losing to Berdych. At RG beat Gasquest (20) and lost to David Ferrer (6). Only one top twenty victory that year - Gasquest (20 - four sets).
In 2011 Andy played RG (five matches) and 3 other clay tourneys - Monte Carlo , Madrid and Rome (10 matches). In those ten matches he only played somebody ranked inside the top 20 (rankings at the time) twice - beating Simon (20 at the time) and losing in that great match to Rafa at Monte Carlo. At RG he beat Troicki (15 at the time) in that remarkable five setter, and lost to Rafa in straights. Two top 20 victories that year - Simon (20 - three setter in MC, Troicki (15 - 5 setter)
In 2010 Andy played RG (4 matches) and 3 other clay tourneys - Monte Carlo , Rome and Madrid (6 matches). In those six matches he lost to Ferrer (17) twice. At RG he lost to Berdych (17) in straights. No top 20 twenty victories that year.

Summary: 2010-present 10+15+13+2 = 40 clay court matches (did not check Davis Cup matches on clay if there were any).
Total wins against top twenty players = 3 - Rankings of players at the time: 20, 20 and 15. Sets: 3/3 4/5 and 5/5
Put another way in the 40 clay matches Andy has played in the last three years + this year he has not beaten anybody inside the top 20 in straight sets.

Andy's progression on other surfaces? The standard 250 then Master's then GS finals then GS.

With respect I think there is a VERY strong case for Andy playing a clay 250 and trying to win it.
Take Estoril (just by chance, ho ho :) ). Top 20 players there are Seppi (19), Wawrinka !! (17), Monaco (14) and del Potro (7).
If Andy took a WC he would be seeded 1 and and so probably play 2 top twenty players. But he would also play against clay court specialists early on - e.g. Zeballos ranked 39 whose clay ranking is much higher.

Perhaps Andy the great tennis player has won a lot of the matches out of these 40 clay matches, rather than Andy the clay courter, if you see what I mean.

Nothing beats winning and maybe Andy has to think about getting that experience first at a 250 clay tournament.

[banskogirl]

Always better to hit us with facts David :thumbup: sounds good to me, now we need Andy to read it!

Although before someone says it, his camp know what they're doing ;)

[pabbers]

I agree, David and thanks for the stats. OK he may think he needs matches against top players (and, as you say, those are available) but to me, as much as anything he needs to find his feet on clay as much as possilbe in as many real live competitive situations as possible, no matter who the oppo may be.

[supergran]

Surely you can't beat playing matches to get the experience on clay. Think we all agree.....hope Andy's camp can see the obvious.

[Mickey]

Surely you can't beat playing matches to get the experience on clay. Think we all agree.....hope Andy's camp can see the obvious.I don't agree, and I fully trust that Lendl knows what he is doing. At the moment Andy is working on certain parts of his game in the morning and the in the afternoon playing a set with Cilic and others who have stayed on. He can hone his skills as there are quite a few top players resident in Monte Carlo. Have you thought that perhaps Andy has to come back to London while the tournament in Barcelona is on, it has been mooted that he may be coming back to receive his OBE.

[jeannie13]

I don't agree, and I fully trust that Lendl knows what he is doing. At the moment Andy is working on certain parts of his game in the morning and the in the afternoon playing a set with Cilic and others who have stayed on. He can hone his skills as there are quite a few top players resident in Monte Carlo. Have you thought that perhaps Andy has to come back to London while the tournament in Barcelona is on, it has been mooted that he may be coming back to receive his OBE.

I agree with you Mickey. Lendl knows what he is doing & Andy obviously trusts him,

Mind you-what does Lendl know--he's only won 8 Grand Slams!!! :laugh::red devil:

[supergran]

I realise what Andy is doing and how he is spending his days and I have faith in Lendl and in Andy too. But still feel that matches are the best practice and experience.

[jeannie13]

I realise what Andy is doing and how he is spending his days and I have faith in Lendl and in Andy too. But still feel that matches are the best practice and experience.

Lendl was saying that Andy's balance etc was not so good at first but was improving. If he'd gone to Barcelona he could have met a good claycourter too early which could have resulted in another early loss. :smashed:This could have affected his confidence. Better at the moment to fine-tune his movement, balance & technique.:highfive: